Last Blood Changes

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Last Blood Changes

Postby Ommina » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:12 pm

Since this affects many of us directly, I thought I'd post this here.

I will start off with changes that we already said would be happening.

We will be evaluating the set of 70 armor + 75 Symbol + Serpent or Sunshard. Those overall stats are higher than our goal.

The intent of Cultural armor is to work in certain sets.

These sets are:

70 armor 70 symbol 70 seal (last blood) let's call this the "Last Blood Set"
70 armor 75 symbol 75 seal(TSS) (Serpent) let's call this the "Serpent Set"
70 armor 75 symbol 75 seal(TBS) (Sunshard) let's call this the "Sunshard Set"
80 armor 80 symbol 80 seal (Faycite) let's call this the "Faycite Set"

We are happy with the Last Blood SET and the Faycite SET, and we feel that the Serpent and Sunshard SET only need a slight adjustment.

BUT some issues are coming about because of the large increase in what we are giving to group level equipment that is making the 75 symbol, 80 armor and 80 symbol artificially inflate the value of the 70 seal (and to a lesser but still there extent, the 75 seal)

We have two options we are looking at, though we have fairly much decided on one. I will go over the one that we are likely to do first.

Overall (with the exception of the slight overdo of the 75 seals) we are satisfied with the way the sets work. The overall stats they give as a complete set fit where we want them too.

What we are going to do is move some of the stats from the seals into the symbol and armor of the set and out of the seals of the set. Overall the SET will be the same, but less of it will be concentrated in the seal. Additionally in some cases some of the stats from the Symbol will be moved to the Armor.

Additionally I am likely to implement a level 75 armor set, so that we can adjust the stats in the 75 symbol and seals to make it not so huge a jump from the 70 (though it will still be a large jump since we are improving group equipment so much overall)

With this adjustment, that does mean that the level 70 GROUP set of armor and symbol will see a large improvement. It should be equivalent to level 70 group armor from TBS when we are done. By moving these stats from the Seal to the symbol that will make the effect of "hanging onto" the level 70 seal less attractive and encourage it to be upgraded as we wish it to be. Additionally it will reduce the effect of the 70 + 75 + LB and 80 + 80 + LB. While they still may exceed some sets of equipment, it will definitely be a step in adjusting the large effect of it.

In some way this will be seen as an "Adjustment Down" of the Last Blood Seals. And well it is, but it is NOT an adjustment down of the Last Blood *SET* of armor. that whole SET will be the same as it is now.

The second option, which we do not like as much (but would be less work for us...) is to enforce an Idea of "sets" using item scripting (which brings a whole other set of issues). A sort of "Set affinity"

For this option the seals would loose value if they are not in there "SET" the stats would decrease the further away from their "set" they are. So if a Last Blood Seal was put in a 80 armor + 80 Symbol set, it would have its stats reduced by a percentage.

The main issue with this is that we would have to wait for a code change (that we are waiting on for jewelry) so that we would not be stuck with even more items that show no stats until they are equipped. So this issue we are having would be in the game longer than we like.

Neither of these changes will be happening until January or later, but the second could take even longer to happen since we need the code change first.

So with that information, our decision is to go with the first choice of just moving the stats around within the set, (and though it was not directly part of it, I think we will have to add a 75 armor set) because with this if we still find that mixing and matching outside of sets is still too much of an issue we can still go with the "set affinity" idea and the adjustments for being out of set could be smaller.

This is all still subject to change, but it is the direction we are going at this point. I will be starting on the research necessary to make the changes very shortly after I send this post.
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Balzzodar » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:02 pm

Ok I read that twice and it still makes no sense to me whatsoever. :?
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Ommina » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:25 pm

Shortened, barded-down version: stats on the Last Blood augs are going to be reduced.
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Zyton » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:55 pm

I really hate to see nerfs on the horizon to my gear path... after already recieving a sublime aug *Thanks Bolwyn*, but doubt it will change my path on gear, since ac is my priority over hps.

Sounds like the developers still are confused and drugged out of their minds again *someone run for munchies*... Reducing a raid item aug to reduce the benefits for group type players makes as much sense as skinny dipping in lava. If they want to reduce the groupable benefits from the gear, the developers need to reduce the symbol stats or have raid required components for top teir symbols. My rant and 2 cents.

Well, I hope I can live with the penalty, or I will be "gimp" (probably not) till top end (80) seals.

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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Oaklen » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:16 pm

What Balzzo said! These folks are looking to open up a pandoras box here imo... but hey, it is their world and I just rent space. :roll:
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Cruz » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:15 am

Ouch...They are doing this even with all the dev assurances that they absolutely would not.

Ouch indeed.

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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Cicak » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:20 am

I can understand why the changes are done. Can't be that a Demi raid drop plus a rare groupable item can result in stuff that is 3 or more expansion ahead of where the raided part comes from.

It should have been introduced this way though and not nerfed in the aftermath.
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Balzzodar » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:39 am

Ok im a bard and im still confused. The stats are changinging on the last blod augs?
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Cicak » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:45 am

They reduce the Stats on Last Blood and increase the Stats on the Level 70 Symbol. So that the Last Blood in a set of 70 Cultural (what was highest before SoF) remain the same.

That also means the Last Blood will not bring your new level 80 Cultural to better than Solteris Level anymore. For that you actually have to acquire now the new Slot 12 Augs.

I wonder if they reduced the Stats on Bazu as well .. or if a Bazu is now better than a Last Blood. Now that'd be hillarious :P
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Tchien » Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:51 pm

Don't forget the Chronal Stones too, we didn't even bother attempting to farm the mobs that drop those
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Zyton » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:16 pm

I think they found a solution... steal the armor with the sublime and last blood while I am logged out of game! I hope this is a temp solution, or just random bad luck. I will let you know when and if I get my breast plate back.

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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Zyton » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:16 am

Oh, I did get my BP and augs back a while ago. Apparently a GM was running around with a glowing green BP that said property of Zyton on the back.

Still am wondering what the changes are. I am assuming from what I previously read that Last Bloods will be nerfed. And the symbols will be increased. I am curious how this does anything but help the group vs. the raid end on the armor, but I not very particular what Joe Grouper has anyway. I am more curious if it will affect my overall stats on 80 armor, 80 symbol, 70 12 slot (LS) and if there will be a demand drop in last bloods. :twisted:

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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Ommina » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:46 pm

Oh yeah! Here is the EQLive thread with the proposed changes. I think it is more 'decided' than 'proposed' now; there should be an indication in the thread itself.

There is a lot of data that follows, but this is the OP (check the thread itself for comparisons of HP values between gear pieces). You can also look at this online spreadsheet (maintained by the designer, not a player) for more numbers yet.

Before SoF Launched, the maximum cultural available was Elaborate armor with Eminent symbols (For short hand I am going to call it L70/L70 for the rest of this post) and you could put in a Last Blood Seal (For short hand I am going to call it DoD seal for the rest of the post.)

For ease of conversation I am just going to talk about plate armor, only the AC varied between it and the chain, leather and cloth armor.

The L70/L70 base set would yield an average of 57AC and 130 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DOD seal and it would average 102AC and 340 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L70/L70 would give 452AC and 1040 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece would give 812AC and 2720 HP/MANA/END.

The proposed change is to move some of the HP/MANA/END from the DoD seal to L70/70 base set. Some amount is also removed from the Chronal (PoP), Discord (GoD), and Bazu (OoW) seals. Some amount is also removed from the Serpent (TSS), Sunshard (TBS) and Faycite (SoF) seals. We found that in this proposal some adjustment would be needed on the SoF Seal, despite previous uninformed statements.

Some of the stats are also moved around so some pieces are not as huge and others not as tiny (though still different) and this accounts for the slight average differences you see on the AC.

With these changes:
The L70/70 base set will yield an average of 56AC and 241 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DoD seal and it will average 101AC and 340 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L70/L70 will give 453AC and 1930 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece will give 813AC and 2730 HP/MANA/END.

The Next Base set is Elaborate armor with Exalted symbols (L70/L75) This set will be changed by having a L75 armor set and the Exalted symbols (L75/L75)

Original:
The L70/L75 base set would yield an average of 57AC and 290 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DOD seal and it would average 102AC and 500 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L70/L75 would give 452AC and 2320 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece would give 812AC and 4000HP/MANA/END.

Changed:
The L75/L75 base set would yield an average of 59AC and 301 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DOD seal and it would average 104AC and 451 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L75/L75 would give 472AC and 2410 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece would give 832AC and 3210 HP/MANA/END.

And finally there is the Elegant armor and Sublime symbols set (L80/L80)

Original:
The L80/L80 base set would yield an average of 80AC and 392 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DOD seal and it would average 125AC and 602 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L80/L80 would give 641AC and 3130 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece would give 1001AC and 4810 HP/MANA/END.

Changed:
The L80/L80 base set would yield an average of 80AC and 396 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DOD seal and it would average 125AC and 496 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L80/L80 would give 641AC and 3170 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece would give 1001AC and 3970 HP/MANA/END.
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Ommina » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:50 pm

Short version: loss of apprx 105 HP / Mana per piece, with a sublime aug.
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Zyton » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:53 am

Thanks Ommina. Looks like guild Last Blood Demand is a falling stock... Sell sell sell! To bad they are not tradable. I would gladly buy unwanted Last Bloods for say... 5 CNP. Muhahahaha.

Guess the good news is that ac looks unchanged. Yay.

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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Ommina » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:45 am

The latest on the Last Blood changes:

The decision has been made to make no changes to the stats on cultural. We believe the armor to be unbalanced in its current state, but we are opting to take the "wait it out" approach rather than making changes to the armor. We will just let them become obsolete over time.

There are consequences to not making any changes. We do consider this armor and the combinations that it can make to be too powerful so we will not be able to continue cultural the way it is in the future. We have multiple options that we are considering for smithing and tailoring but it is likely that we will not include cultural armor in the future of either of these.

We will be making a few changes, but these are all minor upgrades that benefit some classes that were left out. We will be adding a set of seals with a chromatic focus, and adding bard instrument mods to some of the melee centric focus. We have no eta on either of these changes, though the chromatic focus is likely to go in sooner because it has been prepared already. We cannot put it in now though because it would not be able to be tested for the patch. The bard instrument mods will need some extra time and are likely to be a while.
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Re: Last Blood Changes

Postby Oaklen » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:11 am

What is a tempest in a teapot? Is it much ado about nothing? Instead maybe it means to poke a caged animal with a stick. I don't know... the whole thing goes round and round and I seem to find myself back where I started in the end.
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