Oil Spill

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Oil Spill

Postby Goofydoofy » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:50 pm

WTF is wrong with people?!? This event happened almost 2 MONTHS ago and today they decide to use government resources to try and stop the leak? Why the hell wasn't everything this planet had put into use after 1 week? This planet needs a plague and hopefully this is the beginning.

I can't wait to see how long it takes them to decide to have the DoD nuke the pipeline to close it off. 2-3 more months down the line after massive damage has been done, I'm betting.

It is pitiful this type of thing can happen.
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Littlabit » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:55 am

Agree, just pisses me off to even watch anything about the oil spill cuz it just seems they have sitting on their hands this whole time.
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby warador » Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:18 am

last night the news said they uped the amount of oil leaking to 2.5 million barrels a day x 2 months and its polluted the gulf down past 3,000 feet not eating fish anytime soon i guess.

what i want to know is why isnt there a fail safe stopper on these pipes like a 1 way valve there must be 100 oil platforms in the gulf probably more and if this happened once it can happen again
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Glauri » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:13 am

I read that Louisiana, parts of Florida, etc. are ignoring the Feds and doing what they can NOW. They are tired of the red tape and the Federal "chain of command" and I don't blame them. I mean really -- when the EPA after all this time can't approve using an item made solely of panty hose and human hair, things have gotten totally out of control!

Wara...there were I think 3 "fail safe" stoppers on this well...none of which worked. The reason they failed is not known, but as deep well sites far from shore they were exempt from most of the safety regs that apply to other rigs.

I am also pretty offended when I hear politicians say that there is no where left to drill but deep water. We have um...the left coast, the right coast, ANWAR, and huge interior oil shale deposits that dwarf the oil reserves in the Arabian peninsula. If there is no where left to drill, it's for the same reason that land is so expensive in San Francisco -- hardcore environmentalists have removed huge chunks of it from the discussion table.
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Laminate » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:54 pm

I live in louisiana and what is even more dumb about all of this is that because of the spill, the government has stopped ALL drilling in the gulf. this may sound like a safe idea, except that the thousands of people who now have no income that had nothing to do with the spill are now effected as well. its messing up the economy right along the spill itself. you cant just immediately stop the entire gulf coast oil drilling industry. its like saying because someone tripped down a flight of stairs we are no longer allowing anyone to use stairs anywhere until we get it figured out why they tripped. wtf??
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Glauri » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:12 pm

Laminate -- I applaud your Governor's attempts to first, play by the rules and then, realizing that the Feds are all about bureaucracy and not about action...doing what he thinks is needed NOW for your state. Good for him! At least he's really trying!

Ya know, it isn't a Democrat/Republican issue at all. It has to do with the inability of ANY huge bureaucracy to respond quickly and effectively to ANY event. All good intentions aside, this administration's response to this is no better/worse than the previous administration's response to Katrina. Big government doesn't work, no matter who is in charge.
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Antokk » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:30 pm

I'm a fourth year geology major atm, and have taken a couple classes in petrolatum geology and petrolatum exploration and extraction type stuff.

We have um...the left coast, the right coast, ANWAR, and huge interior oil shale deposits that dwarf the oil reserves in the Arabian peninsula. If there is no where left to drill, it's for the same reason that land is so expensive in San Francisco -- hardcore environmentalists have removed huge chunks of it from the discussion table.

The reason there is not commercial extraction of American oil shales has less to do with environmentalists and more to do with technology. Extracting oil from shale in the American west presents absolutely tremendous technological challenges. You could lift 90% of the environmental regulations in place today, and American oil shales would still lie untapped.

WTF is wrong with people?!? This event happened almost 2 MONTHS ago and today they decide to use government resources to try and stop the leak? Why the hell wasn't everything this planet had put into use after 1 week? This planet needs a plague and hopefully this is the beginning.

Government resources have been used to try to stop the thing from the first day. I'm not saying response couldn't and shouldn't have been better, but substantial government resources have been focused on Deepwater Horizon since the very day it blew.

last night the news said they uped the amount of oil leaking to 2.5 million barrels a day x 2 months and its polluted the gulf down past 3,000 feet not eating fish anytime soon i guess.

Anything measured in the millions would be gallons, not barrels. 2.5 million barrels would be a far more destructive leak than anything the world has ever seen; right now I think it's estimated that the leak may be 60,000 barrels a day. A large part of the gulf fishery is closed, and a greater part will be closed before this is all over. It provides about 30% of our seafood overall, so we can expect prices on most stuff to go up.

Wara...there were I think 3 "fail safe" stoppers on this well...none of which worked. The reason they failed is not known, but as deep well sites far from shore they were exempt from most of the safety regs that apply to other rigs.

At this point, I think that this will turn out to be the biggest scandal stemming from the disaster. There have been absolutely insane safety exemptions granted to offshore drillers in the past fifteen years that should have under no circumstances ever even been considered. We do understand, in decent part, why the blowout preventer failed to work - if you google, you'll find an explanation of it.

I live in louisiana and what is even more dumb about all of this is that because of the spill, the government has stopped ALL drilling in the gulf. this may sound like a safe idea, except that the thousands of people who now have no income that had nothing to do with the spill are now effected as well. its messing up the economy right along the spill itself. you cant just immediately stop the entire gulf coast oil drilling industry. its like saying because someone tripped down a flight of stairs we are no longer allowing anyone to use stairs anywhere until we get it figured out why they tripped. wtf??

Honestly, given the negligence that has been discovered both at drilling companies and at the mineral management service, this is a good idea. It sucks that it's hurting people and hopefully they'll be reimbursed in one way or another, but until the cluster we've created by ignoring safety regulations has been fixed, offshore drilling should be halted.
Last edited by Antokk on Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Antokk » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:34 pm

Ya know, it isn't a Democrat/Republican issue at all. It has to do with the inability of ANY huge bureaucracy to respond quickly and effectively to ANY event. All good intentions aside, this administration's response to this is no better/worse than the previous administration's response to Katrina. Big government doesn't work, no matter who is in charge.

The response to the Deepwater Horizon blowout has been MASSIVELY better than the response to Katrina was. There have been problems with it, but the massive negligence that existed in post-landfall katrina have not existed in the wake of the blowout. I'm not saying the government's response has been amazing: think more like the difference between crashing your car in to a wooden wall at 20mph and crashing your car in to a giant concrete beam at 120 mph.

There was greatly disturbing negligence before the spill, especially in the mineral management service, but the post-spill response has not been marked by the same sort of gross negligence that Katrina was.

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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Littlabit » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:53 pm

Antokk you love to do that quote thing dont u? lol
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Glauri » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:21 pm

Antokk...I would disagree with several of your points, but such arguments arising from perspective and not from facts are not productive. So....nm :)
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Littlabit » Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:55 pm

I was gonna say that too Glauri but didnt figure it was worth the argument lol
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Antokk » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:01 pm

Some of what I was posted certainly depends on perspective, but much of it is fact. It's a fact that the cost of producing a barrel from American oil shales is hovering at around $70 (economically unfeasible) atm, a fact that the mineral management people granted huge waivers to normal safety regulations, a fact that government resources have been used since the first day, a fact that much of the fishery is closed and more will be closed, a fact that we have a decent understandings of how the failsafes failed, etc.

The only thing I see that is really an issue of perspective is comparing the Katrina response to the Deepwater Horizon response - and even there it's not like it's an opinion floating in a factless vacuum. To the best of my knowledge nothing like this or this or this or this or even this has been happening with the BP spill. I have a feeling the other thing you might have taken umbrage at was my comment about our oil shales, but I'd be more than happy to dig out one of my textbooks and scan the section on the economics of shale recovery if you'd like - it's certainly not a factless issue.

edit: BTW: looking at the whole nylons and human hair thing, the only information that I can find says that it has been approved by the EPA for more than a decade but that BP and the coast guard are declining to use them in this case because the commercial booms that they are instead using have been shown to do a better job. If that's the case, doesn't their decision make sense? And in any case, the responsibility would lie with BP or the coast guard, and not the EPA.

Edit again: I found an article here that talks about it a little further. So, basically, the coast guard says that they don't work as well as the normal booms which they have no shortage of and are additionally worried that the improvised nature of the hair booms would exacerbate the debris problem. Unless you know something about the situation that I don't, that seems to be eminently reasonable.

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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Dxeter » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:53 pm

We don't need more offshore drilling. What we have is fine. What we need are better refineries. The "youngest" refinery in the US is about 30 years old and runs at about 40% efficiency. If the government would allow the oil companies to make new refineries that were more efficient, we could make use of more of the oil we produce.
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Glauri » Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:14 pm

Antokk...if a barrel of oil can be retrieved from shale for $70/barrel, as you say -- that IS economically feasible, since as of today, oil stands at $77.10/barrel. Are you really betting that the price over the next several years is going down? lol But, if you've been watching, you'd have noticed that the Federal government is buying up the land over our shale deposits by the millions of acres. Gee...wonder why?

Much of Katrina's issues were due to folks waiting around for someone else to help them and government ineptitude. I see much of that here with the Gulf oil issue.

Deep wells did indeed get massive waivers...because they are so far offshore! That's where the hardcore environmentalists wanted them, if they were to exist at all. An entirely different set of rules apply to the thousands of derricks closer to the shoreline. Of course, OUR rules don't apply to overseas corporations, who are drilling as we speak in international waters that our own companies are forbidden to use. So China drills off our shores, then we get to pay them for oil. Makes a lot of sense, eh? NOT!

If I lived in the Gulf, I don't care much anymore what the EPA or Coast Guard say! Great booms only work if they are deployed!! Lacking that...nearly anything is better than nothing at all.

Dxeter...I agree on the refineries. We need too to replace/upgrade our lines carrying the generated electricity across this great country. I also believe strongly in greatly increasing our reliance on nuclear energy. Wind and solar is dandy, but neither is cost efficient or reliable, and likely won't be for years.
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Dxeter » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:13 pm

Don't get me started on nuclear. We are idiots for not being at least 85% nuclear now. I think nuclear already produces about 35-40% of what is on the grid and we have so few power plants. Imagine if they actually used the technology!
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby oneyedranger » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:23 am

Well I think America is addicted to oil. As far as Katrina is concerned plenty of action was taken but Fema could not manage it properly. This happened due to many years of gutless idiots with no leadership skills taking over our top positions in the management offices. I see it in the U.S. Army, FEMA, DoD, I.R.S., and pretty much any Civilian Coorperation these days. Incompetance is our future. Maybe just maybe the sun will explode and save us.

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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Goofydoofy » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:07 am

The problem seems to be a bad cement job for this derick. So, no matter what you do, if you skim money on the construction job, shit will fail. If you go nuclear and you skim money on the construction, we get a nuclear disaster. Just like what happened here. You'll see in the end, the job was done poorly and here we are. And anytime you do any job in America, somebody is going to try and take money and do a shitty job. The only solution is to go back to rikshaws and Flintston cars.

In the end, this disaster and most others are due to people trying to steal money instead of doing a good job.
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Antokk » Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:56 am

If I lived in the Gulf, I don't care much anymore what the EPA or Coast Guard say! Great booms only work if they are deployed!! Lacking that...nearly anything is better than nothing at all.

But that's the thing; there are tons of already produced commercial booms, and just not nearly enough manpower to deploy all of them. The problem isn't the EPA (which wasn't the group that made the decisions) or even the Coast Guard or BP not wanting to use booms made of human hair, the problem is that making more booms out of human hair just doesn't solve the issue of needing more trained workers to put out the bajillions of booms we already have.

Antokk...if a barrel of oil can be retrieved from shale for $70/barrel, as you say -- that IS economically feasible, since as of today, oil stands at $77.10/barrel. Are you really betting that the price over the next several years is going down? lol But, if you've been watching, you'd have noticed that the Federal government is buying up the land over our shale deposits by the millions of acres. Gee...wonder why?

Right now, US oil shale will cost around $70-$95 a barrel for the first considerably number of barrels in the US. In comparison, in many major oil fields the cost of producing a barrel of oil is comfortably under $10. The cost of producing a barrel of oil from the oil sands in Alberta hovers around $30, and that's one of the highest cost production methods currently being used. There is, globally, a lot of currently untapped fields where oil can be produced for $40 a barrel or under. Companies demand the best return on their capital they can get, and it's going to be a really long time before they find that return in American oil shales. $70 may be $10 under the spot price of oil, but there is a limited amount of capital available and when companies have a choice between producing oil for $70 a barrel with the capital they can invest and $30 a barrel - guess which one they will choose! The reason American oil shales aren't seeing huge investment at the moment has NOTHING to do with American environmental regulation.

BTW, in the 1980's with the last major elevation in the price of oil, oil companies did make major investments in to shale extraction. When the price subsequently fell again, they all got completely hosed. Once bitten, twice shy. The only way we are going to see major investment in shale in the next decade is if it's encouraged and HEAVILY subsidized by the federal gov't. There is a very large chance that oil will fall below $70 a barrel in the near future again btw - in late 2008, it fell as low as $30 a barrel. No company in their right mind will spend millions and millions investing in shale with the chance of making 10% over spot price today and a significant chance of oil falling below that point with the subsequent losses that would entail.

We do have some oil sands that we can and probably should tap at some point, but they don't have anywhere near the magnitude of our oil shale reserves. When people talk about 3.3 trillion barrels of untapped American oil, 95% of that is tied up in our shale - ANWAR might have 10 billion barrels of technically extractable oil, our sands might have 100 billion barrels, and our oil shales probably have three and a half trillion barrels.

The federal government is not buying up land that has oil shale deposits currently as far as I know; they already own 70% of American oil shales. Most American oil shale is in the Green River formation, and most land in that area has been owned by the federal government for close to a hundred years.

Deep wells did indeed get massive waivers...because they are so far offshore! That's where the hardcore environmentalists wanted them, if they were to exist at all. An entirely different set of rules apply to the thousands of derricks closer to the shoreline. Of course, OUR rules don't apply to overseas corporations, who are drilling as we speak in international waters that our own companies are forbidden to use. So China drills off our shores, then we get to pay them for oil. Makes a lot of sense, eh? NOT!

It's true that near shore rigs have different (and much better) safety standards than deepwater rigs do, but it's just not at all true that foreign corporations are exempt from regulations that apply to American companies drilling in deepwater. We're frequently accused of protectionism for the number of regulations we apply to foreign oil companies trying to drill in our EEZ. In the deep offshore waters regulated by the United States (like the ones the BP rig was in,) we require all drilling rigs operating within 200 miles of our coast (where the VAST majority of 'offshore' drilling, even deepwater drilling takes place) to be built in America and crewed primarily by Americans!

And anytime you do any job in America, somebody is going to try and take money and do a shitty job

Goof, I really like this quote. Also, although it seems kind of crazy, apparently a nuclear option is not anywhere near as far off the table as I figured it was - apparently it's actually been explicitly considered at high levels of government.

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Re: Oil Spill

Postby oneyedranger » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:19 am

I definately think goofy hit the nail on the head. It just happens to be one of the negative aspects of many positive of the free market based economy.

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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Glauri » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:26 am

True that OER, but shoddy construction companies in a truly free market don't stay in business for a long time. They do if they get price supports, grants, waivers, etc. though. Crappy car companies, phone companies w/spotty service and on and on -- lacking government interference and/or regulation that shifts market forces -- fade away of their own accord. Nothing's perfect, but the more free the market, the more I like it.
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Gaator » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:17 pm

I live in Alabama, granted its north Alabama, but nonetheless Alabama. The president has done absolutely nothing but show his face in a small town on the gulf shore. He has done less for this crisis then President Bush did for Katrina. All I have heard him say is that its BP's fault this happened, how he is going to make sure that BP is going to pay for this, and pushing "green energy". I agree we should be drilling closer to shore, in fact why not on dry land? Use the oil we have here in the US.
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Dxeter » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:44 pm

I'm surprised our Savior hasn't walked on water and stopped the spill already. Remember, he wasn't born in a manger. He was born on planet Krypton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vws9fTtQgz4
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Re: Oil Spill

Postby Goofydoofy » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:33 am

He and Tom Cruise really should get totgether.
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