"Sicko"

Moderator: Littlabit

Goofydoofy
Ride a cowboy, save a horse
Posts: 4700
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Bullhead City, AZ, USA
Contact:

Postby Goofydoofy » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:56 pm

College is far from a must.

Plenty of people who have not gone to college are something.

Then again, if a woman gets pregnant, she can have a abortion if she doesn't want it. The father can't make her have one if he doesn't want it. So, the woman has the choice every step of the way.

I think everybody should be forced to become sterile. We can cross breed the remaining people of the world with different animals and make a master race that doesn't have these problems.

Most people who have children shouldn't breed to begin with. That is the major problem with this planet. Who gets to decide who can breed and who can't? I say me! And I'll be the one doing the breeding.

Or, maybe we can do a Logan's Run type thing. Just kill everybody when they reach 40 or whatever.
Level 106 Druid, Level 106 Enchanter, Level 106 Paladin
Drinal - Maelin Starpyre Server

User avatar
Nyrial
Whee!
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 6:52 am
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Postby Nyrial » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:35 pm

IIRC Goofy, you claimed responsibility for the last one :twisted: It's amazing the things you find when you google yourself.


See this post please! 4th one down! The 7th is also golden.

I'm sure there are days we'd love to pawn her off on you.

Ok derail off, Continue please!

Edits: Damn I can't type today.

User avatar
Kahlyla
Bork! Bork! Bork!
Posts: 761
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:03 am
Contact:

Postby Kahlyla » Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:11 pm

We actually do leave our doors unlocked, but everyone we know (other Canucks) thinks we're nuts, so who knows. We kind of live in the ghetto too.

To be honest it's only because there's no way to lock it from the outside, and we're lazy... 8)

Just today we accidentally left the glass door open as well, so it was just the screen (with Szork's makeshift "kitty door" - really just a cat-shaped hole in the screen), and the cats were totally chillin' on the deck when we pulled into the driveway. To be fair, I do think they have a hand in scaring off burglars. :twisted:

agrun
Whee!
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:34 pm
Contact:

Postby agrun » Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:56 pm

Goofy's love child:

Image

Agrun

User avatar
Sevex
Whee!
Posts: 421
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:25 am
Location: Mobile Al

Postby Sevex » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:37 am

carousel ! carousel ! carousel !
Runner !
fish, plankton, sea greens and protein from the sea !

User avatar
Jaffod
Postcount Whore
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:37 am
Location: Holland MI - break out the wooden shoes!
Contact:

Postby Jaffod » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:25 am

Tron > Logans run

User avatar
Twoofus
Whee!
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:03 am
Contact:

Postby Twoofus » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:42 pm

Just wanna add my 2cents to this topic.

Here in the Netherlands we have a system where you can pick your own insurance company, but everyone has to have health insurance (so you can not not have any at all). People below a certain income get part of what they have to pay, back from the government.

I see people raise points of "why would I have to pay for your choice" and some percentage numbers on who would use the health care.

Here's my view on it:
I'm perfectly fine paying my monthly fee plus taxes for universal health care.
I'm perfectly fine with other people making use of that money, no matter what the cause.
I'm just glad I'm healthy, and it's not me needing the healthcare.

I'm also glad that I don't have to worry about all this shit when I do get sick.

and I wish noone on this planet would have to worry about stuff like this


Seeing the movie and hearing other stories about the healthcare system and those HMO and pharmacy companies in the US makes me wonder how you people put up with it.

Tardar
Whee!
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:54 pm
Contact:

Postby Tardar » Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:45 am

This is a short docomentary dealing with the Canadian system.


http://onthefencefilms.com/video/deadme ... height=375

As to Twoofus' comments how we put up with it... First of all, we don't have much choice at the moment. There are aspects of it all that have motivated us to start a conversation in the country in how we could improve it. Pharmacy companies make the drugs that save people's lives. Most of those drugs are discovered in the US. Why is that do you think? How many are developed in Europe? Percentage wise let's say? Could it be because there is no profit for a drug company to invest in expensive research, so they don't bother? As a European, I would think you would be encouraging the US to continue to promote investment in the future, because Europeans surely aren't doing it.

This all goes to what Trab and many others have been saying. It's a deep and difficult issue, that has many right answers, and far more wrong ones. Focusing on just one aspect of the entire issue, while ignoring many of the others is a sure recipe for mistakes.
Image

User avatar
Terranya
Whee!
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:54 am
Location: Tilburg, The Netherlands
Contact:

Postby Terranya » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:07 am

I guess I can only speak for myself and my dealings with the Canadian system( which I missed a whole lot while living in the Netherlands awaiting my staying permit to be eligible to even buy health care insurance)
I have never had any problems with the health care system in Canada.

My mom was diagnosed with Small cell lung cancer in November 1996, although her chances of surviving were almost nil, the doctor went a head with her wishes for them to do everything and anything possible to give her ANY chance for any length of survival. They gave her Chemotherapy until she was unable to take one more treatment. She died 7 months later, but knowing that anything that could possibly be done for her was.....
She didn't have to endure a waiting period for treatment, dying is stressful enough without worrying about whether you have medical coverage.......

I'm sure there are horror stories in every country about bad care, waiting times, neglect...... I would imagine there is no perfect system.
Like I said I can only give you my experiences.

User avatar
Jaffod
Postcount Whore
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:37 am
Location: Holland MI - break out the wooden shoes!
Contact:

Postby Jaffod » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:11 am

I was going to point out the fact that the US pays for the worlds new drugs earlier but did not really feel like opening it up. There are some drugs develpoed in Europe (and I dont just mean Viagara). I work at a Pharmaceutical CRO and we have some European customers, plus I keep up with the current sector news etc etc.

Glaxo and AstraZeneca are European companies and they arrived in the US that way. They have continued to grow off the US market though for sure. Socialised medicine fixes the prices for drugs so the opportunity for profit is less. I am not sure how Japan works but I know it is often viewed as a more financially valuable market - just it has more regulatory hurdles.

Another knock on Europe (from a drug company perspective) is that Europeans take less pills than Americans. So there is a 'cultural' gap in the profitabilty.

Big Pharma is also extremely inefficient an finding and developing new drug candidates. We are talking government level inefficient. The only hope a big pharma has is to buy up a small biotech that has a good lead and then to market their drug.

Tardar
Whee!
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:54 pm
Contact:

Postby Tardar » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:20 am

There are experiments going on in the country.

The Northeast has traditionally been a haven for high tax politicians. Massachusetts especially. The effect of those high taxes has been a virtual stampede of young people moving out of those states. You can have the highest taxes in the world, but 50% of zero is zero. So what do you think has been happening to governmental receipts in some of those states? You got it, they have been plummeting also. Now the politicians don't have enough money to waste.

There is a program trying to lure some of those young people back.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/ ... nsured.php

It's a good idea. It will be interesting to see what happens with it. It's the right way to do it also I think. Let some local government experiment with what works and what doesn't before the federal government leaps off a cliff.
Image

Tardar
Whee!
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:54 pm
Contact:

Postby Tardar » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:31 am

OK one more thing...

Lol, this topic got me thinking.

Congress currently has about a 25% approval rating.
The President has about a 35% approval rating.

Those are both failing numbers. And these are the people you would have be in charge of your health?

*in my best British accent* Not bloody likely!
Image

User avatar
Twoofus
Whee!
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:03 am
Contact:

Postby Twoofus » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:37 am

I don't know about most, but medicine research is a world wide undertaking. That developed medicines are also distributed in the US only makes sense, since there's a very profitable market there.

In the Netherlands, all drugs are provided free under the health care system (part of your insurance). The pharmacies still make money, as they charge the health care organisations.

As Ter said, there's horror stories everywhere. Don't mistake the propaganda against the system in other countries as anything but that. They want you to believe it's worse everywhere else, so that they can keep raking up the money.

I have no clue to as how biased the movie was, but an HMO should never be able to DENY someone with health care payment, by just starting to dig for shit once a claim arrives. Either accept their payments and pay for their bills, or don't except the payments (aka, don't give them the insurance).
Being able to do what they do is ludicrous.

And you always have a choice...
Or black people would still be sitting in the back of the bus.

User avatar
Twoofus
Whee!
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:03 am
Contact:

Postby Twoofus » Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:40 am

Just wanted to add: reading it back it sounds a bit harsh.
but if things really are that bad in the US, the message couldn't be hard enough.

And I'm not looking down on anyone here, I just feel very very sad about the whole thing. Health care should not be any of your worries, especially not when you're insured.

Tardar
Whee!
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:54 pm
Contact:

Postby Tardar » Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:56 am

I don't know about most, but medicine research is a world wide undertaking.


That's a cliche. It sounds nice, but we all know that's not really the way it is. I mean the world isn't cooperating to research medicine. Some are of course. But there is a reason to motivate that cooperation. Most of the time, not always, but most of the time the motivation for that cooperation is profits. And just like the example of Massachusetts, if a company can make 10 bucks in Europe, but can make 100 in the US, where do you think that company is going to go? What's the motivation for the company in Europe versus that of the company in the US? It's all about competition. The government, any government can't keep up in that kind of environment. So if they can't keep up, what's the result? Less choice right? Less opportunity right?

I see it as a balancing act. Most of Europe has leaned too far one way while relying on the US to research and produce most of what is useful. While the US has leaned too far another, relying too much on the corporation... sort of. And then you have countries in South America who just confiscate things they want, without paying what they promised. If the development of medicine were truly a world wide undertaking, then countries wouldn't be allowed to steal drugs from a company. But that's what is happening. The South American government will claim their people needed it. OK. What happens when the next drug is developed that their people will need? What drug company is going to deal in that kind of environment? So have the people benefited or will they suffer?

In the Netherlands, all drugs are provided free under the health care system (part of your insurance). The pharmacies still make money, as they charge the health care organisations.


Right. And just like in Massachusetts, choice has to be limited. The government can't afford to offer you everything. What is the effect on the population from that limited choice? The pharmacies may make money, but we have no idea how much and percentages. What is the effect on the population from the limits on the pharmacies and the motivation that it stifles?

Health care should not be any of your worries, especially not when you're insured.


Who says? What's more important? I see it as the exact opposite. There is nothing more important and it is my number one concern. Not only should it be our worry, it should be our top 10 worries. What else should I worry about? What day Paris Hilton gets released from jail? What level Beastlord I am in a stupid computer game? What could possibly be more important than my health care?

I've been to the DMV. It's not an enjoyable experience. Now can you imagine going to the DMV when you are sick? Or your child is sick, and the lady at the DMV is who you are looking to for help?

Twoofus I know it seems like I'm picking on you, and I definitely don't mean to. But many of the things that you have said are many of the same arguments I've heard before. And many of them are cliche's and half truths. Much like the movie. I just think any discussion about the issue has to involve all of the issue, not just the parts that are convenient. Moore cherry picked the parts he wanted to deal with in his movie. That's fine, it's his movie, but it's hardly honest.
Image

User avatar
Twoofus
Whee!
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:03 am
Contact:

Postby Twoofus » Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:57 am

Medicine research as cures for different cancers and other diseases are for a huge part done by academic students and other research teams, that's a world wide undertaking. I'm not talking about a couple a goofs in a lab that are cooking up another pill to make a zillion more bucks :)

And as far as I can see, the biggest negative I can put on the system used here, is longer wait times, which they are trying to negotiate by getting more doctors. And people rather have longer wait times then no chance of health care at all. You are right... it is a balancing act.
Would you rather have health care for everyone and no worries about it, or health care for the minority, where you still have to hope you don't get a huge bill afterwards anyways.

What I meant was:
You should not have to worry about health care, it should all be there for everyone.
You should worry about staying fit and healthy (which you can do something about), and not about getting sick (which you can't do anything about).

And I don't think your picking on me, you're just discussing your point of view, as am I :)

Tardar
Whee!
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:54 pm
Contact:

Postby Tardar » Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:50 am

I wanted to make a correction. It wasn't a South American country that violated the property rights of some drug companies, it was Thailand. Not that which country that did it matters in the context.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/posttech ... l_p_1.html

Would you rather have health care for everyone and no worries about it, or health care for the minority, where you still have to hope you don't get a huge bill afterwards anyways.


The problem is that's not the way it is. The man's mother who died waiting for treatment I'm sure wouldn't describe Canada's system as "health care for everyone and no worries about it". So what you are offering is a false choice. What about the false choice of offering free drugs, but vastly limiting those choices? Is that really choice or just kinda half a choice? And those are just the choices right in front of our face. What effect will those choices have in 30 years? The people in Thailand that want/need HIV and heart disease drugs I'm sure are elated with their government's decision to steal them some drugs. How is that going to effect people next decade when a new and better drug is offered but the people of Thailand won't have the opportunity to enjoy it's benefits because the company is not going to fall for that same trick twice. That's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Last edited by Tardar on Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
Cruz
Whee!
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:50 am
Location: Tucson, Arizona (USA)

Postby Cruz » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:09 am

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

or health care for the minority, where you still have to hope you don't get a huge bill afterwards anyways.


This is a radical misrepresentation.

I agree with everyone that the system as it stands now needs reform. I am glad that this film has people talking, this is the start of hopefully finding a solution. I hope that everyone here is not so closed minded to think that there is only one 'right' answer (such as the Socializing the medical system). The best solutions are never found if people think there is only one right answer and push for 'there way or the highway' (didn't Bush do this with the war?). A huge strength of this country is that we usualy find our own solutions to issues and do not just copy or mimic other systems which 'look good' but may or may not work here.

I do believe the system here in the US is not perfect by a long shot and needs to be fixed in the worst kind of way. I do not feel that the creation of a huge self serving government bureaucracy is the answer to all issues. Bureaucracies have (or migrate too) priorities which are often very different from there stated purposes (as do the private health care companies do with profit). Bureaucracies rarely if ever become more efficient and they defend themselves even when the public is not being served well by them.

Tardar
Whee!
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:54 pm
Contact:

Postby Tardar » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:52 am

I'm pretty sure Cruz's avatar is going to give me nightmares.
Image

User avatar
Vitala
wishes Lanyder had a tail
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 10:29 am
Contact:

Postby Vitala » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:13 am

I know, look at the smile on its happy little face. /shiver.

And...
The best solutions are never found if people think there is only one right answer and push for 'there way or the highway' (didn't Bush do this with the war?).


Um, remember the sanctions? True, they didn't give them very long to work... only from 1990 to 2003!! But what's 13 years of defiance, genocidal behaviour & increased threat rhetoric (if not actual wmd production) between friends?


On a more topic-relevant note, even though I don't agree with all the views expressed in here, it's WONDERFUL to see everyone debating so nicely! Intelligently written, thoughtful & provocative (but not too much so, haha) it's just great! /HUGS CN!!

Vitty

User avatar
Jaffod
Postcount Whore
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:37 am
Location: Holland MI - break out the wooden shoes!
Contact:

Postby Jaffod » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:45 pm

Vitty, I have been very pleased at the tone of this debate. I have been monitoring this one more than usual just in case (I did not want to shut it down).

Good job CN folks (and CN app too:) )

User avatar
Vitala
wishes Lanyder had a tail
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 10:29 am
Contact:

Postby Vitala » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:48 pm

You know, I really think it's due to my influence. I mean... everyone knows I'm the soul of moderation and diplomacy. You all can hardly help but to follow my example. /nod nod.